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New Mexico Privatization. Nuthin like it

2. See Montana for counter-example. Total dumpster fire. So much so that a working group on this very website has emerged to fix what E-Plus does a great job of addressing.

i don't think transferable private tags fix montanas population declines in mule deer. seems neither here nor there, you might need to expand on that.

but we could talk about how LPP in colorado has all but fully eliminated any possibility of having successful large scale private access programs for the public in colorado like wyoming has?

the almighty dollar shuts out regular joes again. it's success for some and a failure for others 🤷‍♂️
 
LPP in colorado has all but fully eliminated any possibility of having successful large scale private access programs for the public

Don’t landowners who sell landowner vouchers in Colorado have to open up their private land to the person who bought the voucher? That was my understanding.
 
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Don’t landowners who sell landowner vouchers in Colorado have to open up their private land to the person who bought the voucher? That was my understanding.

so we're talking 5k-50k to hunt private land?

what's it cost in wyoming for access yes?
 
I am sure you are right.

There are abuses of every law and system in the world, that is not cause in and of itself to dismantle or disregard them.

That is a red herring fallacy in my opinion.
Which speaks nothing about WHY EPLUS is an abomination. It is the wholesale privatization of what is to be a public resource that is the problem there.
 
the NM resident or non resident non hunter just isn't the sleeping giant you make them out to be.

you and seeth should just be honest that you two like the idea of privatization because it benefits you two directly and the number within the womb of time be damned.

no need to beat around the bush.
There is no beating around the bush for me. Reality is there is a substantial amount of private land in this country and although wildlife is a public resource, it requires willing private landowners to ensure the future survival of these species. Unfortunately our society doesn't contain many people anymore it seems that value the existence of wildlife over cash. It doesn't matter if we are talking about NM, Montana, WI, Florida or New York. The trends of ranchers, farmers and developers destroying wildlife habitat in trade to make a larger profit is what I'm against. That's it. Any government program or incentive from organizations that encourage private land owners to give conservation value to the habitat and wildlife I'm in favor of because it beats the alternative of seeing a marsh ruined by drain tile or a sage flat tilled and irrigated to produce a crop.

Is E-plus perfect? No. After some more research and reading thanks to the video Hank linked up and actually reading the entire application and rules on the website I see a lot I would change. However, I don't want it to disappear because the work it is doing to encourage habitat improvements is overall good for the state. We hear it here firsthand from Hank on how it can be good.
 
so we're talking 5k-50k to hunt private land?

what's it cost in wyoming for access yes?

Those are pricey! Quality vouchers in CO can be found for way less than that. PM me if interested, I can point you in the right direction;)

Regarding WY- varies significantly depending on the tag and area. Accounting for the time value of money, it can very easily more than that more than that (from a NR point of view). It’s hard to favorably compare the quality of Access Yes hunting to NM E-Plus (elk) in my opinion. Massive issues of private/public elk distribution in WY have been very well documented here on HT. (Of course all of this is completely disregarding the significant habitat differences in the two states),

Montana… no brainer, really doesn’t pay to even discuss. Proof enough that not having transferable landowner tags doesn’t magically open up private lands (BML is a mess, well documented by various HT members. I believe @The Hedgehog has a thread discussing it somewhere- thought it was him but can’t say for sure). The issues are so obvious that a working group of local experts has emerged from HT in no small part to address these specific problems.
 
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Those are pricey! Quality vouchers in CO can be found for way less than that. PM me if interested, I can point you in the right direction;)

Regarding WY- varies significantly depending on the tag and area. Accounting for the time value of money, it can very easily more than that more than that (from a NR point of view). It’s hard to favorably compare the quality of Access Yes hunting to NM E-Plus (elk) in my opinion. Massive issues of private/public elk distribution in WY have been very well documented here on HT. (Of course all of this is completely disregarding the significant habitat differences in the two states),

Montana… no brainer, really doesn’t pay to even discuss. Proof enough that not having transferable landowner tags doesn’t magically open up private lands (BML is a mess, well documented by various HT members. I believe @The Hedgehog has a thread discussing it somewhere- thought it was him but can’t say for sure). The issues are so obvious that a working group of local experts has emerged from HT in no small part to address these specific problems.

the issue is we can't have access yes in colorado because landowners can instead do so much more financially with vouchers. something like access yes is a non starter because of that, dead on arrival so to speak.

montana... the issue is the demise of mule deer, not access. transferable landowners tags or lack thereof have nothing to do with it.

hunting doesn't need to be relegated to the elites to have any chance at continuing into perpetuity. on one hand, a capitalistic monetary approach might help wildlife more in the end.... maybe, we can't really say. but i can't imagine anything that would more quickly lead to a disinterested american public than wildlife only existing for the elites and that can't be good for wildlife and habitat in perpetuity. rooting for such an outcome is baffling to me.
 
the issue is we can't have access yes in colorado because landowners can instead do so much more financially with vouchers.

And that’s a good thing. An E-Plus style system in CO would be way better anyway. That would kick a$& honestly, for residents and NR. Think of the private that would open up.
 
montana... the issue is the demise of mule deer, not access. transferable landowners tags or lack thereof have nothing to do with it.

Certainly agree population of MD is an issue- but I would argue that location of elk and mule deer is probably the larger issue at hand.
 
Which speaks nothing about WHY EPLUS is an abomination. It is the wholesale privatization of what is to be a public resource that is the problem there.

These tags are available to all. In keeping with one of the central tenants of the NAM or Wildlife Conservation, E-Plus truly opens up opportunity on an international level to an international resource.

In addition, New Mexico’s E-Plus program provides significant private land access opportunity as well as financial upside for all residents of NM.
 
hunting doesn't need to be relegated to the elites to have any chance at continuing into perpetuity. on one hand, a capitalistic monetary approach might help wildlife more in the end.... maybe, we can't really say. but i can't imagine anything that would more quickly lead to a disinterested american public than wildlife only existing for the elites and that can't be good for wildlife and habitat in perpetuity. rooting for such an outcome is baffling to me.
Its sad but I believe this to be correct. And its only correct because there are people with money willing to pay for hunting wildlife. The American wildlife model is great for the general American citizen. It is also good for wildlife compared to what it was in early America. But there are other places in the world where wildlife is doing fantastic where it's all on private land and managed by those owners. Argentina - so many ducks and doves its absolutely stupid to hunt them. Axis deer, red deer, blackbuck extremely abundant on the ranches that manage and allow them to stay (neighboring ranches will just shoot everyone because they don't want them). Look at South Africa. Based on stories shared here is wildlife doing bad there on private? Central/east/south Texas - might as be its own class but wildlife is doing great there all ran by private citizens under generally their own management.
 
Its sad but I believe this to be correct. And its only correct because there are people with money willing to pay for hunting wildlife. The American wildlife model is great for the general American citizen. It is also good for wildlife compared to what it was in early America. But there are other places in the world where wildlife is doing fantastic where it's all on private land and managed by those owners. Argentina - so many ducks and doves its absolutely stupid to hunt them. Axis deer, red deer, blackbuck extremely abundant on the ranches that manage and allow them to stay (neighboring ranches will just shoot everyone because they don't want them). Look at South Africa. Based on stories shared here is wildlife doing bad there on private? Central/east/south Texas - might as be its own class but wildlife is doing great there all ran by private citizens under generally their own management.

there's no denying that. and allowing the market value of wildlife to flourish would very likely be beneficial, but i imagine it would turn into diminishing, if not negative, returns faster than we think in america. the dollar is an insatiable monster.

foundationally a democracy is designed to keep any one party from developing complete control, be it the elites, the government, or the general people. i believe in democracy, and so i on principle will never be for a system that starts handing over complete control of wildlife to those with the most money. i believe the rest of use lose more than we gain, and my mind will never be changed.

the easy way is rarely the best way. and the easy route sure seems more privatization.
 
there's no denying that. and allowing the market value of wildlife to flourish would very likely be beneficial, but i imagine it would turn into diminishing, if not negative, returns faster than we think in america. the dollar is an insatiable monster.

foundationally a democracy is designed to keep any one party from developing complete control, be it the elites, the government, or the general people. i believe in democracy, and so i on principle will never be for a system that starts handing over complete control of wildlife to those with the most money. i believe the rest of use lose more than we gain, and my mind will never be changed.

the easy way is rarely the best way. and the easy route sure seems more privatization.
Correct and that is why there needs to be a balance. Specifically talking about E plus, it does seem the balance based on the current program setup is out of balance towards private landowners compared to the other stakeholders
 
These tags are available to all. In keeping with one of the central tenants of the NAM or Wildlife Conservation, E-Plus truly opens up opportunity on an international level to an international resource.

In addition, New Mexico’s E-Plus program provides significant private land access opportunity as well as financial upside for all residents of NM.
International level. That is supposed to be some good thing? HAHAHAHA. The wildlife are a STATE property and benefit held in trust for primarily New Mexicans benefit in this case, except the state is screwing their own residents with EPlus and well heeled nonresidents are the main beneficiary. Selling a massive fraction of wildlife hunt opportunity to highest bidder does not benefit average New Mexicans who should be able to apply in a lottery for the oportunity.

Financial upside to all New Mexicans? to take away the public resource and opportunity and give it only to pvt landowners who selll to the high test bidder who just happens to not be the average new mexican by a LARGE margin. Again, That is a laugher.

Just say you like enhanced access for wealthy nonresidents. That seems to be the truth shielded by nonsensical arguments otherwise.

Done with this silly back and forth. Pointless.
 
Simple way to fix the eplus system is it should have to stick to the resident vs nr allocation of the regular draw that will drive up the cost of the nr tags in that system and they will sell and lower the price for the tags that go to residents and if they don't sell the default back to the regular draw for residents
 
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